Seun Williams on Moving From Prosecution to Defense and What Juvenile Court Teaches

ALEXANDER POWELL: Welcome to Cited Authorities. I’m your host, Alexander Powell. My guest today is Seun Williams. Seun tried cases as a Prince George’s County prosecutor before crossing to the defense table, where he is now a partner at the law office of Thomas E. Pyles, where Seun handles criminal defense cases, personal injury cases across Maryland. Seun also sits on the District 15 Judicial Nominating Commission and coaches high school mock trial. Seun, welcome to Cited Authorities.

SEUN WILLIAMS: Thank you, Alex. Thanks for having me. It’s truly an honor. I know we go way back, so thanks for bringing me on.

ALEXANDER POWELL: Seun, you spend years deciding whether to charge an individual as a prosecutor, and now you defend them. You defend their constitutional rights. When did you first notice that perhaps you would be well suited for the other side of things when you were a prosecutor?

SEUN WILLIAMS: Being a prosecutor, it does give you some authority, some power as to okay, who am I gonna charge, how am I gonna charge them, but then that’s it. You really once you charge, once you prosecute, that’s it. You have no nothing else. It’s not a situation where you can reach out to the defendant and say, Hey, Mr. or Mrs. Defendant, can I assist you in doing this? Can I assist you in doing that? It’s that’s it. And it’s the next case that comes up, and you do the exact same thing, and the next case that comes up, you do the exact same thing. But as a defense attorney, you get a little bit more latitude, right? Not only are you helping individuals.

For the situation they’re coming to you for, you can also attempt, right? Attempt to address the underlying issue, right? So if it’s a situation where it’s alcoholism, you could get them into a rehabilitation program and follow up and make sure that everything is going the way it’s supposed to be. I try to take a proactive approach in my practice, which sounds ridiculous sometimes, right? ‘Cause I’m also a business person. I wanna help individuals that walk through those doors, but not just help with that singular case. Help them with okay, what’s the underlying issue? How do we address that underlying issue?

So you’re not coming to my door in a negative way, but more of okay, I’m just coming to check in or just giving you an update as to how great my life is, right? So you just get a little bit more latitude as a defense attorney rather than as a prosecutor and helping people ‘cause these same said folks are my community. The folks that I see at the grocery store, right? The folks that I see at the gym. It’s this is my community, right? So I’m not just gonna prosecute, I’m gonna try to help. So that’s that was really the biggest mind frame shift for me was how can I really help these individuals rather than just okay, I’m just gonna prosecute and next case bring them bring them on up.

ALEXANDER POWELL: Your background includes the juvenile division. What did working with young people teach you about what the system can actually change?

SEUN WILLIAMS: Working with young folks is it is life-changing personally and professionally, And I’ll give you two examples. I’ll give you actually three examples. So when I was in juvenile court as a prosecutor, right? You’re ‘cause juvenile court is for rehabilitative purposes. How can we help this child? You know, there’s a saying that it’s easier to mend a child than to fix a broken man, right? So how can we help mend this child make sure we rehabilitate them, make sure this doesn’t occur again? And I don’t fear much. There’s very few that scare me. Like it really, and maybe I’m just hard-headed, maybe I just don’t care, I don’t know. But I vividly remember this one time. I’m a prosecutor in juvenile court.

And this young man was brought in for status. It wasn’t even a case that I was hearing. It wasn’t a case that belonged to me, it was just a status hearing, right? And it was in front of Judge Dawson. Back then, Judge Dawson was the juvenile court judge. And you know, they read the judge asks this young man, hey, how’s everything going? This, that, and the other. DJS, Department of Juvenile Services, gives their report as to, yeah, he’s still doing his programs, this, that, and the other. And then Judge Dawson repeats the young man’s last name. And I was like, why is he repeating his name? And he posed the question to the young man. He said, Wait a minute.

Your brother currently has a murder charge in circuit court, right? And the young man says yes. Now the whole entire time while you know, ‘cause it’s a status hearing. It’s really I really have no dog in that fight, right? It’s between the young man and the judge, just trying to get an update as to what’s going on. And DJS, we’re just dead as furniture at this point, right? So I had my head down. I didn’t really pay attention to the young man. And I’m right, and when Judge Dawson repeats the young Man’s name and said, well your brother is in circuit court right now for a murder case. I popped my head up because, you know, now I’m paying attention. And the young man says yes, right?

And he said, yeah, my father’s also currently locked up for murder. And then I turn, I literally just turn my head to the right and finally pay attention to this young man. And I guess he sensed my presence turning to him. So he turns at the same time, turns his head to me. And at this point we’re looking at each other face to face. And I put it this way. Have you ever seen whether Jason or Mike Myers, right? Whether Friday the thirteenth or Halloween, you know how the mask, there’s really no eyes, it’s just darkness. Right? That’s what I saw in this young man. At a very at that young of a age, there’s nothing behind those eyes. And he just was very okay. Like I’m waiting my turn.

And it that br not necessarily yeah, broke my heart in a sense because this young man has accepted his fate. Right? Like this is what’s lined up. My brother’s facing a murder, my father’s currently incarcerated for a murder. This is what’s coming. I mean, my path is my path right now. And there was nothing behind those eyes. And it again, nothing scares me but looking at that young man’s eyes and just seeing that there was nothing there. Was it was just a blank and that it to this day still gives me chills cause I was like, I’ve never seen that before. A especially not in a child, right?

We’re not talking about an adult, we’re talking about I don’t know, he may have been fifteen, sixteen when but this was back in maybe 2015, 2014 maybe. But n nonetheless, that so that experience really it impacted me because well, what are we really doing for these kids, right? In juvenile court. Wha how are these kids actually being impacted, right? Then when I transition over to defense or to private practice, I deal with still deal with juvenile cases that walk through the doors and I make it mindset to try again, follow up, make sure everything these kids are doing what they’re supposed to do. And I even have two stories as a defense attorney, one good one, not so good one.

I represented a kid maybe 2018, maybe 2019, and he messed up, right? He messed up juvenile court. We kept his case in juvenile court. I get a report from the parents sh maybe a few months ago that this kid is in the military now. He’s a firefighter. I mean, he’s just doing everything that he’s supposed to do. And I saw the greatness in him. I could tell that this was just an isolated -oh, I messed up kind of situation. And those cases, you know, I take pride in those cases because you some kids you just see this kid is he’s gonna do great things. We’re all kids. We were all kids at some point. We all messed up at some point, right?

I always I as I told the young man when I was speaking with him, I said the difference between you and I is you got caught. I didn’t. So we all mess up and it’s you know, this shouldn’t be the doom and gloom for you.

ALEXANDER POWELL: Seun, switching gears now, you argued a case that went all the way to the Maryland Supreme Court, where the statutes seem to point in different directions. How do you build the strongest argument for a client when the law might be ambiguous?

SEUN WILLIAMS: So it’s an ego versus humility kind of battle, right? Cause and I explain it this way. Your ego wants to say, Well, this is how it should be, and I’m going to write the greatest brief ever, right? To show the jud the justice this is how it should be, right? But then there’s that humility portion of things that says, well hold up wait a minute now. There are certain laws that are out there that may or may not touch this subject matter. Why don’t you lean into that and speak from that perspective, right? So for me anyway, it was a balancing act, right? It was I went into it once I appealed that case and I said, Hey, it’s gonna go all the way up. This is my time to shine.

This is my time to let the world know that I am you you know, a great legal mind, right? And I’m writing the brief and I’m saying and it should and you should and you this and having these power words instructing the justices what to do. And then I had to stop and say, wait a minute, time out. These are individuals that this is their job. All they do all day every day read opinions, write opinions, and this is the and interpret the law and make new law, right? So why don’t you tone it down a little bit? So for me anyway, it was a balancing act as to your ego, satisfying that ego of I’m a great legal mind versus the humility as to this is something new for me. How do I learn from this experience?

I actually have a story. When I went to go argue my brief, right, I’m in front of the Supreme Court of Maryland. I go to Annapolis, I go argue my brief. This is my first time ever being, other than when we were getting sworn in, because we get sworn in at the same place, right? To when we get our license, or when we get barred. But this is my first time making an argument, and opposing counsel clearly she this she was a seasoned veteran because she walked in, she knew where the break room was. I mean, every she knew everybody, so I’m just trying to do mimic what she’s doing because I’m a rookie. I don’t know what to do at this point. I don’t know procedurally what about and I could tell she could sense that.

So she’s kind of leading me, say, okay, you know, arguments about to start. We wait in this room first. You can hang your coat because it was raining outside. You can hang your raincoat here. That’s where you can make yourself some tea, some coffee if you need it. What I normally do is I go sit and just listen to the arguments ahead, and so I’m following it. I mean it was very gracious of her because she could have just said, whatever, you know, you’re opposing counsel, forget you, right? And that there was the humbling aspect of things because in my brief I wanted to write like I am the greatest legal mind, but in actuality, in the practice of law is different as well, right?

The what you have to do in these environments are a little bit different and she had to teach me and I was able or mindful enough to know I don’t know what to do right now, right? I know how to type on my brief, I know what my arguments are, but procedurally what do I do? How do I walk? Where do I go? Where am I allowed to go? Those kinds of things I did not know. And here’s the kicker. I had gone up there a few, maybe a week or two before my argument to just take a look. But all I was able to do was just go into the hall and just all in the in the room to hear the arguments. I did not know what was going on behind Closed doors, right? But that it was cool. It was really cool. I did not win my argument.

It was actually the opinion was against my or the ruling was against my request. But it was still really cool. Being in front of the justices and just hearing their questions and not being tone deaf because sometimes as lawyers we are just so stuck to our roadmap this is what I want to argue. And just actually stepping back and listening to the questions and hearing, okay, they’re trying to lead me to this. So audible and follow the lead and argue this and this that and it was really cool. It was a great experience. I would wholeheartedly say great experience.

ALEXANDER POWELL: Even for the Supreme Court of Maryland to take a case, it has to be worthy of granting cert, which is a lot in and of itself, you know, that you had a case that was so noteworthy or novel, worth taking, that the Supreme Court of the state decided to hear it. And also in that government attorney for the AG’s office, you know, he or she, they might have had you said she might have had four cases there that day. You know, she

SEUN WILLIAMS: She Correct. Correct.

ALEXANDER POWELL: Well, she had one downstairs in the appellate court and then one upstairs in the Supreme Court. Right.

SEUN WILLIAMS: Correct. She’s I mean she was [unclear] but she was just very pleasant. Also a great legal mind. I mean you could tell she lived for this. You know, there were indiv you know, there are individuals you look at and you say, these are litigators, they love being in front of the jurors. You could tell she loved appellate work. I enjoy people, I enjoy individuals that have done this before me, because I get to learn and just sh she was great. Let’s put it that way. She was great, it was a great experience.

ALEXANDER POWELL: It’s also interesting too. I’ve heard this from another prosecutor that they at one point in time they did a switch between the attorney general’s office in Maryland and trial prosecutors and the state’s attorney’s office, you know, they switch roles for a week or a month or something like that here and there. And the appellate attorneys, you know, brilliant legal minds. Struggled with trial work because it’s such a different skill.

SEUN WILLIAMS: Correct. Correct. It’s it’s completely, completely different. It’s dealing with people, right? Appellate work is dealing with lawyers. Right? Not saying that we’re not people, but it’s dealing with lawyers, right? Different

ALEXANDER POWELL: Different different kind of people. Right.

SEUN WILLIAMS: Kind of people, right? Different kind of people. Trial work is dealing with just people, day to day people with different experiences, different backgrounds, different goals, right? Different education, different mindset with appellate work is for the most part is they’re lawyers and it’s just different levels of lawyers, right? Whether it’s up and coming lawyer or a Supreme Court Justice lawyer, right? It’s just different forms of lawyers. So that’s although it’s I enjoyed it. I I like there’s still a law student aspect in me where I enjoy reading case law and reading and my favorite appellate court judge the one of my favorite opinions I like or writers I like is Judge Moylan, right?

I like because he writes for the layman. I and I don’t know if that translates well, but he writes for the lay it the way it’s like having a conversation with your uncle when you read his opinion. It’s like, okay, I can see that. My uncle would say something like that, right? It’s really neat. So I’m still that nerd in me that enjoys till this day I’ll go on the Maryland court’s website and find recent opinions and just read up on it and just say, Okay, well I could see how that could be or I don’t really necessarily agree with this. This and I’ll it’s me critiquing, right? And I don’t wanna it’s me critiquing, well, no, it shouldn’t have been written this way.

I personally probably would have done it this differently this way or saw it, I see it a little bit differently this way. It’s cool. So there is a pellet portion of me that enjoys the briefs and writing my I write my own motions, I write my own briefs. I it’s I enjoy that aspect of things. It’s fun to me. It’s through that law school aspect of things that I get to do.

ALEXANDER POWELL: Right. I would say in terms of finding one’s feet that they’re both extremely difficult to be great at, appellate work and trial work. But perhaps trial work is harder at first. I don’t know, maybe that could depend on the person too. But I’m speaking in generalities.